Wednesday, March 23, 2005

Same Sex Marriage a Social Issue, Not a Christian Issue

To those of secular or other faithful thinking I apologize in advance; most of this statement can only be supported through Christian theological reasoning:

The Old Testament goes far in speaking against homosexuality, and provides extreme punishment for those actions. The New Testament (The New Covenant) speaks more softly about the issues but does, through the Apostle Paul infused with the Holy Spirit, tell us to "avoid sexual immorality, that each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable, not in passionate lust like the heathen who do not know God; ... The Lord will punish men for all such sins, ... for God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life." (1 Thessalonians 4: 3-7)

In Romans 1: 18-32 Paul speaks, almost shouts, about God's wrath against mankind for sexual immorality and unnatural relations. It is very evident that Paul saw these things as horribly against God and sure to invoke God's wrath come judgment day.

In the very beginning of the next chapter however, writing to Christians in Rome and all the world, Paul says this: "You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things."

Jesus, in Matthew 5:27-28, says this: "You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

We are all sinners. It is simply a matter of what one's sins are. With Newt Gingrich in an affair while he publicly chastises Bill Clinton for his, who is the greater sinner? Neither. All sin is the same.

In "The Augsburg Confession", a document from 1530 written by Philip Melanchthon that is considered early papers of the Lutheran Church, the theology of Original Sin is this: "(We) ... teach that since the fall of Adam all men begotten in the natural way are born with sin, that is, without the fear of god, without trust in God, and with concupiscence; (Saving some time: "concupiscence" means a powerful feeling of physical desire, or lust) and that this disease, or vice of origin, is truly sin..."

All Christians are sinners. All sin is the same. Don’t use another’s sin as the basis for recrimination, especially in the public eye.

Gay marriage is seen as a church issue only because the church is the place many get married. A church, as a private institution, may choose to marry gays, or may choose not to. Differing churches have differing acceptance of this issue. Gay marriage is but one of many differences of interpretation of God’s Word that are the reasons for diverse denominations within the greater church of Christ. If you seek Faith, regardless of your sinful nature, there is a church there for you. Go, be welcomed, and learn the Word.

Gay civil union is a different matter entirely. In considering laws for or against civil unions among people of the same sex the ONLY consideration is the Constitution and the other laws of this land. America is a country based upon great personal freedoms, not a theocracy. Those that wish to hold religious beliefs are entitled to do so but, while they hold themselves (or are held as may be appropriate) to God’s Law, there is no basis in American law for forcing God’s Law on those outside their faith.

If you are against gay marriage, be so on personal grounds, but don’t bring Christ into it unless you are without sin.


Anonymous Anonymous said...

I would have to disagree on this one.

First off, let me say that I am a blood washed born again follower of Jesus. I'm socially very far to the far left and morally very far right. I don't feel that either of the major parties speaks to the true Christian.

Anyway you look at it, homosexuality is a sin. There is no way a Christian can be pro-homosexual anything. There is no way for a Christian to be indifferent about it either. How can we as christians say that we cannot say anything about it or bring Christ into it because we are sinful? This makes no sense to me.

Thats like saying we cannot judge someone who continously molests children because we are sinful. A Christian who is reared in the word, praying without ceasing, and living according to God's will can do this type of judging. You bring Paul into this, but he was the main one who was continously judging the actions of others who continously sinning or preaching false gospels, etc.

5/20/2005 1:26 AM  
Blogger interfaithpope said...

First of all, thank you Christian Democrat, for being so level headed with such a divisive issue.

The rest of my comment is to Anonymous. The problem is that you are saying that Christian values are the only ones that count in this country. I am a U.S. citizen, I am a Non-Christian and I am a homosexual. What you are saying is that even though MY religious beliefs don't say that homosexuality is sinful or bad, that doesn't matter because YOUR religious views are more important. It seems to me that you would have no problem living in a country with a theocratic government. There are several to choose from including Vatican City, Iraq and Iran. One of the big reasons that the U.S. is so unique is that our founding fathers felt that it was imperative that church (religion)and state (government) be kept separate in order to be fair to ALL CITIZENS regardless of personal beliefs. Because of this, I don't insist that everyone form a circle and chant praises to the Goddess before every town meeting. It ALSO means that, as a Christian, you have an obligation to disassociate your religious views from your political involvment. This is one of the biggest problems right now in our country. People are confusing personal morality with lawmaking. No one is trying to force you to accept homosexuality as correct behavior. No one is trying to force your church to perform same-sex marriages. And, if the government ever did try to do that, I would stand by your side and fight them because I believe that it is your right to worship and believe as you choose. I would appreciate the same degree of respect being afforded to me and my beliefs.

The issue of same-sex marriage is about providing a very vulnerable group of people with rights that will keep them from being taken advantage of by unscrupulous people. Homosexual couples have a great many things in common with heterosexual couples when you remove the religious boundaries. We are very committed to each other and we share the responsibility of taking care of each other through sickness or health, through wealth or poverty, in good times and bad. We share ownership of property (if we are allowed) and share the responsibility of maintaining that property. We are active participants in the community and in our families, and yes, even in our churches. Plus, we do all this out of our own willingness because we have no legal obligation to keep these responsibilities. And yet if my partner got sick and was in the hospital, a hospital technician or administrator can tell me that I'm not allowed to see her because I'm not her spouse. When we pay taxes, we pay more than you and your spouse do even though we are identical to you in every way except gender. If my partner had health insurance I would not be covered because I'm not of a correct gender even though in every other way we are the same as a heterosexual couple. These things just don't make any sense to me.

Also, to equate homosexuality with child molestation is, in my opinion, going way too far. Perhaps you should educate yourself about both issues a little bit. To say that 2 consenting adults who love and care for each other is as punishable as a middle aged white HETEROSEXUAL male (I'm not a man hater.... look up the statistics) who coerces, stalks and sexually forces himself on a child taking away their "God-given" innocence is ridiculous.

As far as judment is concerned, who's words will you hold in higher regard? Paul is very judgmental (as you said) but Christ teaches "judge not" and "God looketh on the heart" and "cast the beam out of thine own eye so that thou mayest see clearly". Just a couple of thoughts for you to ponder.

Again, thank you Christian Democrat for this website. It's about time that Christians began a retaliation against the evil of the so-called "Religious Right". I was raised a Christian and I have met so many beautiful and Christ-like people within the Christian faith. It's so horrific to me how people are distorting scripture so that they can turn it into weaponry against the "least among us". I hope that you are right about a backlash happening and I hope that truly Christ-like Christians can overthrow to malignancy that has become the "Religious Right".

May your days be filled with light and love.

5/20/2005 9:57 AM  
Blogger Greg in Austin said...

I have a few words for those who would pronounce my sexual orientation a sin (from the cozy comfort of their heterosexual perspective and their love affair with the Old Testament): You have not walked in my shoes. Not even one step, let alone a mile.

You may consider it heresy, but this is the way God made me. Though I was not conscious of what it "meant" at the time, I was homosexual by the age of seven. I know this in my "heart of hearts," to borrow the oft-used terminology of those whose convictions cannot be proven.

It's not a choice, nor a fad, nor a sickness. It is love in one of its myriad forms. When others focus on that fact, they will relax. It is when their voyeuristic imaginations venture into my bedroom that they become repulsed and deem me a sinner. By that standard, the fat couple who graze on fried chicken at the potluck supper in the fellowship hall are equally sinful. Are they being pilloried by the modern-day Pharisees of the GOP?

To those who would say that this is my burden that I must ask God to help me overcome: I tried. I prayed as fervently as one can, often tearfully, throughout my adolescence. God said no.

So my options were...
- live a lie and ultimately ruin someone else's life in addition to my own
- a lifetime of celibacy and loneliness
- suicide
- reject the self-loathing imposed by others and find peace within myself, knowing that I have hurt no one (the child molester analogy by Anonymous is repugnant) and that I am a full-fledged Christian in spite of the scriptural fragments some wish to impale me with.

Be honest. Which would you choose?

5/25/2005 8:03 AM  
Blogger interfaithpope said...

Greg in Austin, I truly understand where you are coming from. I knew I was attracted to other girls as early as five years old. Of course, at that time I had no idea what that meant or what that would later do to my life. Keep in mind that I was raised in an extremely devout Christian environment. When I became old enough to understand that these feelings I was having for women were sinful (according to the church) I began the process of trying to eliminate those desires from my life. I did this with varying degrees of success for about 12 years. Then one day, after fasting for the day, I took a drive and prayed through tears for God to remove this from my life. The only answer I got was a tiny thought. The thought was this... What if I'm not supposed to be straight? What if God wants me to follow this path? I started thinking about that possibility. It took a few more years before I finally accepted the fact that being gay was who I was and that wasn't going to change. My life has been an exciting roller coaster since then. I feel for the pain that you have experienced at the hands of so-called Christians. It seems that they have missed most of the beautiful teachings of Christ. I do not identify as a Christian because I don't feel like Christianity is a religion worthy of the name of Christ. I also have found many wonderful teachings outside of Christianity and don't want to align myself with a religion that won't acknowledge their importance.

I feel like you are still experiencing a great deal of pain from the negative experiences you've had with Christians. I wish I could tell you a magical cure for that hurt. I don't think it ever really goes away. As healthy as I feel right now, there are still situations that put me on my guard because of the cruel things that "Christians" have said to me in the past. I think that time is the only real healer. Each person and each situation requires a different amount of time to ease the pain.

My only addition to that would be this: Don't blame all Christians for the faults of the people that have hurt you. I have met so many wonderful and truly Christ-like people in my life. They are fewer than those that are un-Christ-like but they are out there. I think it's important to keep an open mind with people. If you find out that someone is a Christian, don't immediately discount them. Find out what kind of Christian they are. If they are a true follower of Christ they will only offer you love and support, regardless of their views on your life. In my experience, most people who claim to be Christian wouldn't recognize Christ if He was standing right in front of them. Matt 15:8 "This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me." Give people a chance until they prove that they aren't worthy of your time.

May your paths be filled with light and love always.

5/25/2005 1:08 PM  
Blogger Christian Democrat said...

Playing catch up to several comments here. Work called me for several days and I am behind.

To anonymous who disagrees – your right and privilege, of course. We each have our own understanding of sin, of the consequences, and of our actions towards sin in others. You stated your opinion clearly but I think miss my point. I am not espousing pro-homosexual anything as regards Christian faith, I am saying it isn’t my place to have an opinion against them for their homosexuality anymore than I should hold whatever your sin is against you. The child molester comparison is too often used, it attaches to fears that many hold right next to the fear of homosexuality. Child molestation is against the law, man’s law as well as God’s law, and there are consequences here on earth as well as in the afterlife for those people. I wish, in fact, that the consequences were harsher here.

I say leave God’s law to God’s judgment, let man judge and sentence those who break man’s law.

Further, the point of legal status for significant others, whether gay or straight, does need to be changed, I think even from a Christian perspective. Would Jesus want a person to suffer in a hospital without the person they love near their bed? I don't think he was that kind of guy. Your opinion may be different, but that is mine.

Interfaith Pope – great name and great comment throughout the blog, thanks for your activity and opinion. This site is about sharing opinions and, hopefully, developing a sense that we can all get along, agreeing where we agree, being polite where we don’t, and working towards, as I say too often, the common good. Glad you are here, send more our way, please.

Greg – I sense your frustration with Christian morality and can only ask that you not judge us all by the actions (or lack of action) by some. I don’t know what your theology may be, but can only offer that when a Christian says homosexuality is a sin that they believe it to be so from their reading of the Bible. Each that feels so, and include me in that group, needs to also properly acknowledge that they are sinners, too. The question comes back to “Who among us is righteous” and the answer is none.

Fear of homosexuality is rampant in our culture and growing stronger just as acceptance of homosexuality among many grows. It is a divisive issue that many people choose to take a stand on, it brings out the best and worst in each of us.

I am glad you found peace with who you are and will echo Interfaith Pope’s comment that there are many Christians that do understand their sin is the same as yours. If you are so compelled to reject the notation of sin in your sexuality, then I think you are mistaken. If you can accept that you sin and ask God’s forgiveness, as many do for an immense variety of sins other than homosexuality, then God and Christ are there for you.

Ask, and it shall be given.

Might it be that you really don’t have a theological base and don’t understand sin? Do a Google on “the Augsburg Confession” and there is a fuller definition than that which I clipped above as well as a wonderful basis for theological faith.

Somewhere in Austin I assure you there is a Christian gathering that would welcome you.

5/25/2005 2:47 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Let me clarify my statement..

Child molestation is not comparable with homosexuality. I apologize for using that analogy.

Let me put it another way..
How about if an adult and a child, wanted to get married?

Say the adult was 42 and the child was say 11 years old, but seemed to sincerely want to marry this 42 year old.

Is this right?
What is our standard? The law doesnt support this, but does that alone make it wrong? Being happy or content, is that what the standard is? As long as it doesnt "hurt anybody" is that the standard? How do we formulate these standards of right and wrong?

I equate homosexuality with all other sin. It is sexual immorality. It is the same as the heterosexual man who cannot stay faithful to his wife or those who commit adultery.

What did Jesus mean by sexual immorality in Matthews 15:19?

Only Jesus can wash those are in sin and transform them.

5/29/2005 3:34 PM  
Blogger Christian Democrat said...

I'll say this as clearly as I can: We are all unclean.

Yes, through faith we are driven to lead clean lives - free of sin to the best of our abilities. I am not saying that homosexuality is seen as OK in God's eye, but I am saying that churches are filled with sinners of all calibers, that every Christian is a sinner as surely as Jesus Christ was the only pure man to walk the planet; and he had the advantage of being God as well. None of us can match Him.

The onslaught against homosexuality is driven by the fears instilled by our secular society and by fears of man. It is clearly stated in the Bible as an unclean act and worse, but so is public drunkeness, adultery, murder, etc., Do we prohibit those sinners from coming to the Lord's table if they profess faith in Him?

Homosexual marriage is another matter and is being held up in many churches because of their interpretation of Scripture. That is their proper right, to worship as they please and to uphold The Law, God's law, as they understand it. Not all churches will have that understanding. That too is their proper right.

Civil union is yet another matter. Two people that are committed to each other should have rights in civil court. Should they be allowed to have a civil union? That is for lawmakers to decide. Should they be allowed to marry? That is for churches to decide. Should they be allowed common courtesy of hospital visits, health care, surviorship and other benefits that heterosexual couples have? I, as one, think yes to the common courtesies certainly. The rest I leave to the lawmakers to decide here and to God to decide in His Kingdom. It is wrong to withhold comfort and security to any simply because they sin. We all sin.

5/29/2005 7:24 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yes we all sin. But grace does not give us a license to sin. Peter talks alot about this. Once saved, you are different, you hate sin. You may still commit a sin, but you are always checking yourself, trying to do right, at least I do.

A practicing homosexual is someone who is practicing sin. They are succumbing to a perverse fleshly desire. They are in bondage.

This person is blinded by Satan, they don't realize that what they do is wrong. They even justify their sin. It is our duty to pray earnestly for these people and all those people who are not saved so that Jesus name and power is known and glorified.

This sin, no matter what it is, prohibits them from coming to know Christ. Nor should anyone try to stop them. Whoever does is also just as guilty. Anyone can profess faith in Christ. However we can see by their actions if they are true followers.

I'm not part of some onslaught against gay people. I think it gets too much attention anyway.

Again, I think this issue is a pawn that the GOP is using to further it's big-business agenda, the same as abortion.

I just see it as the way of the world and a sign of the impending return of Jesus.

6/01/2005 9:28 PM  
Blogger Chris McIntosh said...

The problem with the very angry loud ultra conservative Christian groups is that they willfully engage in spiritual violence practicing a ranking system of so-called "biblical" sins and no matter what they do everyone else's sin is worse.

Making assumptions about another human being is sinful and if you read anonymous' comments that is exactly what anonymous has done. Anonymous is practicing a sin and that is clearly laid out in the Bible.

Anonymous are the men and women who call me names, send me hait mail, say I have no right to live and should just kill myself engaing in sin or in your mind is this okay. Is my loving the same people who show such great hatred to me sin or what Jesus guides us to respond.

Jesus made it very clear that those who sin should not condemn others.

Through the word of Jesus I learned that commited same-sex relationships are in themselves not against God or "nature" Sex within the context of a commited loving relationship is not sinful at all. Sexual abuse however is.

*********************************** Suggestion - Judge yourself.

I for one will continue integrating my sexual orientation with my Christian faith and be the light Jesus asks us to be.

Homosexuality wasn't even a word until the later half of the 19th century so we the people should question what did the bible really say. Beginning in the 20th century our wonder bibles began to change.

Were the references in the bible related to lost heterosexuals only? What was the real sin of Sodom? Perhaps prejudice and inhospitality towards outsiders? Or perhaps sexually abusing God's angels? It wasn't about sex at all. If it was then Lot would have been punished for offering his daughters up for rape, and Lot's daughters would have been punished for raping their drunk father.

There is a lot of theology out there that convincinly demonstrates God said nothing about loving someone of the same sex is an abonination. Man, not God has decided that I am immorral simply for loving another woman.

In Kindess and Christina Love,

6/03/2005 5:44 PM  
Blogger Christian Democrat said...

Chris -

While I might disagree with some of your theology, I do know this: Jesus Christ died for your sins as surely as He died for mine. In Him we are saved. He loves you as surely as He loves anyone, as surely as His love is for everyone.

Be at peace with Him.


6/03/2005 9:42 PM  
Blogger greg said...

Before I go further, I want to commend you, Christian Democrat, for the evenhandedness you have demonstrated on this issue. You are not my enemy and any tension that seeps through into my writing comes from my frustration with society in general and with Anonymous in particular. It is not hostility toward you. In fact, if everyone were as cool-headed as you, my problems would be few. There’d still be an obstacle in the way of our full fellowship – would you hang out with your next-door neighbor who, though he also admits to being imperfect in some other way, thinks your relationship with your wife is a sin? But the improvement would be a quantum leap.

For you, Anonymous and Christian Democrat, this is an abstract issue. And when issues are dealt with in the abstract, they are often cut and dry, open and shut – quite simple. It’s like Republicans dealing with the poor and uninsured, or whites trying to understand racism. The issue of homosexuality when considered by Christian heterosexuals is tidily put to bed by pointing to a (very) few verses and, to make themselves feel better, declaring that they “hate the sin, not the sinner.”

I have had my understanding of sin questioned here, along with a nudge to look further and review the Augsburg Confession. I have accepted that nudge and done so. Though I am still not sure it is a condemnation of homosexuality specifically, I do agree that homosexuality probably falls under their heading of ‘concupiscence,’ especially given the time and place it was written (and by whom). But the authors are all mortals, and while I do think it is possible that they were divinely guided and got it completely right, I think it is just as possible that their primary concern was saving their religious movement by coming up with a document that would appease King Charles and therefore could have gotten much of it wrong. I simply don’t know. It is not an article of my faith, but it doesn't need to be for me to be a Christian.

And I am a Christian.

Now in the spirit of that nudge, I offer one to you who are willing (or able) to let your preconceived notions fall away for a moment – and isn’t that one of the aims of this blog? – and try to accept a couple of things as true (just for a minute, OK?). As Interfaithpope and Chris M (and many thousands of others) will attest, we did not choose to be this way. Who would? Many of us grew up in strong Christian homes. I know I did. Many of us were born and raised in rural towns where there was no “gay culture” (or even TV then) luring us into the “darkness.” I grew up in a small Oklahoma town and for all I knew, I was the only one on the planet who felt this way. Unless you believe that I invited Satan into my life at the age of seven, I had no part in becoming this way. Did you, Anonymous, choose to be heterosexual? If so, I want to know exactly how and when it happened. I really do want to hear all about it.

But we’ll set that aside for a moment and assume that even if we didn’t choose our sexual orientation, it is still our big obstacle to overcome, that God wants us to change. So we pray. We go to church twice a week with our Christian families and read our Bibles and pray. We ask God to forgive us for having these thoughts (I was a teenager in a tiny Oklahoma town, remember? I had never acted on any of my feelings). We ask Him to please lift this burden and help us become closer to Him. We go to Baptist Church camp every summer. And Vacation Bible School. We listen to the fire and brimstone sermons, ears burning, hoping no one in the congregation will know the preacher is shouting at us. We go to the front of the church during the invitation and announce to everyone that we have accepted Jesus as our savior. We are baptized. And we pray some more.

But it does not go away. More than a decade of tears and self-hatred and praying during what could otherwise be blissful adolescence do nothing to change what we are in our very core.

We go to the prom, smiles pasted on. Imagine if you can your world turned completely upside-down. It is 1983 and you have to go to the prom with someone of the same sex, because that’s just the way it is. Can you imagine that? As outrageous as that seems to you, double it. Welcome to my teenage years (and way beyond). But I still didn’t give up. I went right along with my praying, knowing that God doesn’t want me to be this way and that I just haven’t tried hard enough, or prayed the right way, or that He is not ready to lift this burden from me. It isn’t time yet.

And that’s what it comes down to, doesn’t it? When one does not – or cannot – conform to others’ idea of what a Christian is, it is because they didn’t try hard enough. They are “blinded by Satan” (thank you, Anonymous, for pointing out what is in my heart). It can’t be the infallible deity’s fault. It’s the impenetrable wall of dogma – whether it’s wrapped in razor wire and topped with a sign that says “You’re going to hell!” or quilted and embroidered with “Love the sinner, hate the sin.” Either way, it divides. And it takes its toll on those on the outside.

But you know what? I agree that it’s not God’s fault. And after thirty years of questioning it, I came to the conclusion that it is not my fault either. Maybe it is God’s will. Maybe it is His will that I went through that torturous crucible in order to help my life companion with his own wounds, this beautiful person whose father, after having read his quiet, sensitive thirteen-year-old son’s diary, stormed into the living room and, in front of the family, grabbed him by the throat, choked him, and forced him to his knees to pray aloud that God “remove this filth” from him. The son until that point had made nothing but A’s in school, but he never made one again, his confidence shattered. He had sung in the youth choir at church but felt so humiliated and exposed that he never sang there again. He began contemplating suicide after his father, convinced that there was some bad influence to blame at that tiny school in rural Louisiana, sent him to live with his grandparents.

So I refer you both to my aforementioned list of choices given my situation and ask, less rhetorically this time, what would you do? You say, CD, that you are glad that I have found peace within myself but in the same breath remind me that my lifestyle is a sin and that if I will only ask for forgiveness, it will be given. How, exactly, does that work? How am I supposed to be at peace every day yet every night ask God to forgive me for loving this gentle, beautiful person I love? Again, this is not a rhetorical question, and for me it is definitely not an abstract one. And Anonymous, I agree with you that Jesus is coming. I only hope your bony, judgmental finger isn’t pointing my way when he does.

6/14/2005 11:06 PM  
Blogger Christian Democrat said...

Greg –

Your writing contains a great deal of thinking, of heartfelt and deep consideration for the issues that emanate around homosexuality and the church, of entirely valid challenges to others’ positions, such that I really have to come up with a simple statement, one that many of us should use more often: “I don’t know.” But I’ll think about it still, and respond here:

The issue may not be as abstract to others or me as you think, although I’ll agree that it isn’t as immediate to me as it is to you. Gay family as well as other relationships at work and in the community bring the point(s) home to me, but none have spoken as clearly as you do here. I thank you for that.

I often refer to the Augsburg confession because it is a simple document that I came back to after searching for theological understanding in more contemporary writings. I am a Lutheran, appreciative of the first reformation, and thinking personally that maybe a second reformation may be needed. In the Augsburg Confession’s statement of original sin, and specifically concupiscence, it is as I read it referring to lust in general. Is homosexual lust worse than adulterous lust? One actually has it’s own commandment against it, the other Jewish law, which is seen by many (most?) as God’s law, against it.

While we cannot discount the Old Testament we can accept the New Testament as the new covenant. Jesus Christ was the embodiment of God, the teacher of true love for all, the bringer of peace and salvation for all who accept him. And he never said a word against homosexuals.

Paul, on the other hand, was outspoken in rejecting all acts of lust outside of marriage. My reading of his words often hears him shouting, angry, horrified at the crimes against God that he (and perhaps He) wanted mankind to stop. Paul’s background was as a strict follower of Jewish law (he is believed to have been a Pharisee before his conversion) and he was making his well-educated case for salvation through Christ Jesus to, in many cases, others brought up strictly within Jewish law. But Paul, yes incredibly infused with the Holy Spirit, was still but a man. Are we not all infused with the Holy Spirit through baptism and faith? Are we all not but men? Is it possible that Paul was writing as a man to other of mankind using man’s logic to make God’s case?

Do I mean, by this line of thinking, to say that homosexuality is acceptable to God? I’ll say it again, I don’t know, but I’ll go further as regards this statement and add that I think not. But that is of little or no importance here. I’m reading Romans these days and in that book Paul makes a case for those under the law and those outside of the law, saying that even without the (Jewish) law there is law. We all know right from wrong and it is there that God will judge each of us individually. What is right and wrong for you? How well do you meet your own benchmarks of civility? Perhaps those are the questions you should consider.

To answer your final question, though, “How does it work?” I will say that my understanding of forgiveness is that through personal examination, personal confession, faith in Jesus Christ and the sacrament, the taking of the sacrament and through the power of the keys, we are forgiven. Do we than go forward pure until the next sin? Yes. How long does it take to get to that first sin? Is it measured in days, hours or minutes? Seconds, perhaps? Does the person that smokes, defiling God’s creation, not receive forgiveness knowing they will sin again? How about so many in adulterous relationships, those who don’t respect their parents, who tell lies, who justify theft in the name of corporate “profits”, or those who can’t help but want to keep up with their neighbors covetously. Consider the thought, word and deed aspect of sin and it's difficult to believe that many Christians go a day without sinning.

“If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone …”

The point I come to here, and much of my writing is fairly stream of consciousness, is that you are struggling with your sin just as many of us (all of us?) struggle with ours. Yours is simply a hot-button topic for the media and for many in (and outside) the church. Your sin is one of the most discussed, often most outwardly visible, and most to inspire a solidly yes or no response. Your sin is one your have struggled with to much greater degree than many of us simply because you are strong in faith, because it is an issue that you confront (and are likely confronted with) every day of your life. But your sin, truly as I understand it, is no worse than my sin; and I sin every day, too, I struggle with that, too, I want to be better and fall short, too, and I, like you, am a Christian.

I cannot say that your homosexuality is acceptable to God; it simply is not my place. More importantly, though, I can say that it is absolutely outside of my bounds to consider your sexuality in any of our dealings; there is mans’ law (not legislated law, but personal ethical law that we all know – right from wrong, how we treat each other as humans, basically) that governs us and in that I say I am truly pleased to have met you. You have inspired me to further thinking than I had come to previously and to a better understanding of myself as well as your life and how it feels to be gay. We all need more understanding.

You struggle mightily with the alignment of your faith with your sexuality and I am not the one to define a set of parameters that fit. Perhaps you could speak with some Episcopalian minister(s), find out their understanding, and give a report back here? I would greatly appreciate it and think others would, too.

I call this blog “Christian Democrat,” singular, for a reason: I am just a guy, like you, trying to figure it out. We all struggle. Just because we struggle on different personal issues with our place in God’s eyes doesn’t make our struggle all that different.

I purposely left Anonymous’ comment of 6/1 unanswered as I felt I had covered what my response would be previously. I truly wish there were a way to eliminate anonymous posting as it makes it difficult to tell one anonymous from another and it is hard not to consider one anonymous posting when responding to another.

6/15/2005 12:28 PM  
Blogger greg said...

Thank you, CD, for your words of understanding and consideration, but most of all for the simple phrase “I don’t know.” That’s mostly what I and others want to hear, not for the ‘Gotcha!’ moment many Christians seem to fear will happen if they let on that they are uncertain about something, but for the simple acknowledgment that they don’t know what it’s like to walk in my shoes. I’m not looking for a chink in your armor with which I can begin trying to unravel of all your beliefs, because I share many if not most of them too. I have learned to be wary of those who are not conflicted about anything, religiously or politically. Anyone who has it all figured out has stopped listening, thinking, and feeling. And they are a danger to our democracy and to their own purported mission of bringing people closer to God.

Thanks again and take care, y’all.

6/17/2005 9:35 AM  
Blogger greg said...

There is a good (very long) article in today's NY Times Magazine about gay marriage. (6/19/05) It is pretty evenhanded.

Here are a couple of passages that sum up the issue pretty well...

"If you are one of the many millions of people who are vaguely opposed to gay marriage -- who perhaps have no problem with homosexuality but also think marriage is simply a uniquely male-female enterprise -- sitting in Polyak and Deane's (a lesbian couple interviewed) living room might put that notion to the test. Watching their kids play, listening to stories of how, for their family, small things like taking a child to the pediatrician can become huge headaches, you might come around to thinking that this is, after all, a matter of giving a particular minority certain basic rights and along with them legitimacy and stability.

But, of course, the Christian activists aren't vague in their opposition. For them, the issue isn't one of civil rights, because the term implies something inherent in the individual -- being black, say, or a woman -- and they deny that homosexuality is inherent. It can't be, because that would mean God had created some people who are damned from birth, morally blackened. This really is the inescapable root of the whole issue, the key to understanding those working against gay marriage as well as the engine driving their vehicle in the larger culture war: the commitment, on the part of a growing number of people, to a variety of religious belief that is so thoroughgoing it permeates every facet of life and thought, that rejects the secular, pluralistic grounding of society and that answers all questions internally."


"Polyak, who once thought of this whole issue as essentially about civil rights, says that she is now in it for something more profound: she doesn't want her children to grow up with a stigma. ''I want to lift the psychic burden on my family,'' she said. That means changing hearts.

How difficult that will be was illustrated by a single vignette. When I met Polyak, she told me how, when she first testified before a legislative committee, an anti-gay-marriage activist, a woman, confronted her with bitter language, asking her why she was ''doing this'' to the woman's children and grandchildren. Polyak said the encounter left her shaken. A few days later, as I sat in Evalena Gray's
(a woman interviewed earlier in the article) Christmas-lighted basement office, she told me a story of how during the same testimony she approached a blond lesbian and talked to her about the effect that gay marriage would have on her grandchildren. ''Then I hugged her neck,'' she said, ''and I said, 'We love you.' I was kind of consoling her to some extent, out of compassion.'' I realized I was hearing about the same encounter from both sides. What was expressed as love was received as something close to hate. That's a hard gap to bridge."

6/19/2005 7:05 AM  
Blogger GP said...

The Democratic Party is in favor and supports granting two men who orally copulate and sodomize each other the right to adopt children. The greatest influence in a child's life is his or her parents. Democrats also support the right of a pregnant women to walk into a clinic and have her 21 week unborn child's brain stem cut and call it a womens right to healthcare. Democrats support teaching children in our public schools that the gay lifestyle is just different and not wrong. This clearly conflicts with the Bible. Democrats support the removal and banishment of public exhibits of the Ten Commandments in the name of Separation of Church and State. Democrats support the removal of the mention God from the pledge of alligence. All of these issues go against a Christian's core beliefs and certainly go against spreading the good news of Jesus Christ. So called Christian Democrats want us to believe that they don't wear their religion on their sleeve. A true Christian has no choice, it is simply who they are. Becoming born again is a life changing experience. It is not a cloak that you can put on and take off when entering the polling booth. Therefore, a true Christian could not support any organization which adopted these policies. I can respect a gay atheist man who supports these views, he's not pretending to be something he's not. However, I have no respect for a man like Howard Dean or Jesse Jackson who call themselves Christians but espouses these views. Christian Democrats cannot have it both ways. Morality is not how much a certain party spends on social welfare programs; and whatever the amount should be is open for debate and does not conflict with a Christians core beliefs. Morality is not how much money you give to the poor. Morality is not what reason the government gave to go to war. The Democrats are clearly trying to shift the definition of morality to appeal more to religious Americans and that's fine for Democrats if they want to do that. Christian's don't look to Democrat's to see what is moral or not. They look to the word of God. The Bible is clear, Sodomy and homosexuality is living in sin and not open for debate or interpretation. Murdering unborn children clearly conflicts with the Christian way of life. Christian's primary purpose for living on earth is to share the gospel of Jesus Christ to others. How does teaching children in public schools that the gay lifestyle is healthy and normal promoting the gospel? How does removing the Ten Commandments from the front of a court house help in spreading the good news of Jesus? How does removing prayer in school and the mention of Jesus Christ help share the gospel to others. The answer is simple, it doesn't. It goes completely against the primary purpose for Christian's on earth. All of these views are held and supported by the Democratic party. A true Christian cannot simply look past this because the Democrats offer a better prescription drug plan over the Republicans. What we do about Social Security, Healthcare and Welfare are all open for debate and what it really comes down to is which party is willing to fund more money for any particular program. You are absolutely dillusional if you think those issues have anything to do with your primary purpose as a Christian's. A Christian's purpose is to share your faith with others and to spread the gospel around the world, period. Removing the Ten Commandments, the mention of God, the mention of Jesus Christ, the killing of unborn children, promoting homosexuality are in direct conflict with that primary purpose. You must decide which side your going to take. The side that promotes policies that follow the teachings of Jesus Christ or the side that promotes policies that conflict with the teachings of Jesus Christ. If your still confused on which party to vote for in 2008, your probably too wrapped up in your liberal causes to have much time for Jesus Christ in your life anyway. One last question! WHAT WOULD JESUS DO? Can you honestly see Jesus Christ voting for a party that protects abortion rights and the adoption rights of homosexual's and removing the Ten Commandments from the front of a court house and then say well at least i'm being tolerant and the Democrat's do have better plan on Social Security. If the answer is yes, well my friend, you don't know Jesus Christ! You only think you do.

6/29/2005 5:48 PM  
Blogger greg said...

I had a feeling you were out there. It was about time you showed up to help in spreading the good news of Jesus. You've probably caused a stampede of souls toward Him already.

6/29/2005 9:02 PM  
Blogger Christian Democrat said...

GP –

I’ll start by saying I think we have much more in common faith than we do in difference of theological opinion. I’ll also say that I can accept you having your understanding but will not accept your rebuke of mine.

Your perception of the abortion legislation that was turned away is flawed. The Partial Birth Abortion legislation that the GOP attempted to pass last year was written quite entirely beyond the stated intent. Yes, while stating very clearly the law against partial birth abortion, which would have won wide-spread support, it also was purposefully written in such a manner as to allow for judicial review in the future that would overturn Roe v. Wade.

I know, you might think that’s a good idea, too, overturning Roe v. Wade. Well, we disagree, again, as I have stated elsewhere on this blog. To outlaw abortion is not to stop abortion, it only makes it much more dangerous for those that are not of means, and more inconvenient for those of means. If the right wing hadn’t been so darned greedy, they might have actually passed an anti-abortion law to be proud of. But no, with them it’s all or nothing, my way or the highway, self-righteousness played to the hilt with little regard for their own shortcomings. I’m anti-abortion but pro-choice; beyond that I am pro-a-life-worth living as someone beautifully put earlier in this thread.

Your two key points seem to be homosexuality and abortion. Can you not read deeper than that? Yes, God’s law, the law of the Old Testament, which is upheld in the New Testament, says homosexuality is a law-breaker and many interpret other passages to be against abortion. But lets go one more, grab one of the big ten, and compare homosexuality to adultery. Adultery got it’s own commandment while homosexuality did not. I don’t know if there’s any weight there, but when it came time for God to tell us the ten most important things to a good life, avoiding adultery made the list and avoiding homosexuality didn’t. I will agree with you that homosexuality is displeasing to God, but it seems that adultery is worse.

And we know what Jesus did with the adulterous woman:

John 7:53 thru 8:11

Then each went to his own home.

But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought n a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such a woman. Now what do you say?” They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.” Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”

“No one, sir,” she said.

“Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared.

Which is a really fine and oft used end to the quotation, but I’ll add Jesus’ parting words to that woman:

“Go now and leave your life of sin.”

If only it were easier. But I don’t think (and I should say that more often, as this is only my understanding of God’s desire, my personal theology that is becoming a foundation that I build upon, but is a continual study) God wants it to be easy for us. Where is the pleasure for God if his creation is easy for all its inhabitants? How would we show him we are good, when we can’t be bad?

God doesn’t want us to be adulterers, and likely not homosexuals, either. He really wants us to have one lifetime partner, only one sexual partner in our whole lives; and likely he wants that to be a heterosexual union, too. I really think that is what he wants for us, but I also know gay people that have convinced me that they were born that way, have read other reports that agree with this statement, and believe it to be so. So what does that make them – a mistake by God? God is infallible, God is omnipotent and God is perfect. Sorry, no mistakes there. So I go back to my statement as for when life begins and repeat it for homosexuality in God’s eyes – I don’t know.

I do know that there are millions of gays that need the Truth of Christ. They, too, are God’s children. I do know that many women that have aborted a pregnancy, probably all, carry that with them for eternity. I do know that people sin. All of us. Are you perfect? Then go ahead and throw that first stone.

“…and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us…”

Gosh, I don’t think the homosexuals, nor the abortionists are even trespassing against you, even if they are against God’s law. It’s not your judgment against them to make. In your own household, yes, absolutely. But for others, I don’t think so.

They are forgiven, if they have faith in Christ.

I disagree with some of what the Democratic Party does. Do you think the Republicans perfect? I agree with more of what the Dems do, more of what they want to do, than what I see the GOP doing. I am not a fan of the ACLU, but find them more palatable partners than I do Enron, the pharmaceutical companies, the war machine, et al, and frankly, better than some of the Christian Fundamentalist theology. I believe that I can teach my kids and other people’s kids about creation at home and in the church, sometimes laughing at the stupidity of the theory of pure evolution, which I don’t think should be taught in public schools without a counterpoint of creation as an equal, perhaps better possibility.

But again, I fall to the side of the Democratic Party for their actions that speak to the teachings of Jesus Christ. Do you want a list? Read the Beatitudes, then read Matthew 25:31-46.

Let’s pray for each other and hope to meet on a better day.

7/01/2005 11:19 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am a democrat, I am agnostic, I am male, I am gay and I am from Texas. I have looked for a sign that not all Christian's hate and coming upon this blog has been that sign. Oh I logically understood there are plenty out there but I never seem to come across them very much.

I enjoy reading what I have seen here and I agree with you on everything you have said. For so long I have fought against the religious right's intolerance and been driven batty by the hate they spew at the GLBT community. I must admit I began to confuse "all" christians with them. Mostly because they were the only ones I heard from in the discussions. They rarely have "progressive christian leaders" on tv its always Pat Robertson vs. liberal x.

This coming Tuesday my state is most likely going to pass a constitutional amendment enshrining discrimination into the state constitution against my people. Certainly I plan on voting against it as will most progressives I know but I am pessimistic about it. Texas is not known for its progressive nature.

I thank you for the opportunity to see this place and to meet you. It gives me hope and restores a little bit of my faith in humanity and lets me know not all Christains think "God Hates Fags"

11/05/2005 10:48 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am only 13, and I am confused about some of this stuff(it's a lot to read :-)) but I just have to say what I know. I love God so much and I'd do anything for Him. I know for a fact that God doesn't hate homosexuals. I'm not good at remembering scripture, but I am good at remembering things I learn in the Bible. Well, you know nobody is perfect, we're humans it's our nature to sin. Every sin is equal. A white lie is equal to a murder in God's eyes (not talking about law here ;)). I know that in the Bible it says that it's a sin to be homosexual(not in those words). So it's just that some people don't sin that particular sin and others do, but because of society it is looked upon differently. A homosexual person is just like anyone else. And I know that no body is to judge except God. That is His job. We have no right to do that, that's for sure. I belive that you can be a homosexual christian OF COURSE, but it is still a sin that we have to deal with up against satan. The ONLY way to overcome this sin that means so much to people's hearts is GOD! To be close to God, praise Him, feel His presence, get to know Him more, and NEVER give up or let satan grab ahold of you and laugh and spit in your face. Jesus has already defeated satan, so there is no need to fear his evil. Find your joy in Jesus Christ. Not in sin. Turn away from sin FOR GOD! At least try and make a sacrifice that won't even measure up to what He has done for us. And this is what I always remember when I'm struggling...God has "set rules" not just to be some king dude that can boss people around. It's because he loves us and he wants us to choose Him. These rules bring us closer to Him and further away from Satan. Also..think of this. If you were God, would you want people to love you because you are making them, or because they truely love you and chose you. I know I want to make God happy as I can. I know I screw up all the time, and God forgives me each time and picks me off my feet each time and holds my hand through each day. I hope that people will just see the truth. God's love and passion. How all Christians must all unite no matter what, and help eachother. Be a light to others all around us and just life our life the best we can and glorify OUR God. Never judge anyone..always be accepting and warm to all others even if they are not very nice to you. PLEASE..if we're gonna be living in Jesus's name then we should start acting like it. Don't give Jesus a bad name just because some people who call themselves Christians show others falsehoods about God. God is awesome. I'm getting tired. I love you all so does God. It's all good. <3

4/19/2006 11:18 PM  
Blogger Christian Democrat said...

Wow. From the mouths of babes ...

Hard to believe you're only 13 with such a considered theology! I'll add few thoughts:

1. You might consider your two statements - "all sin is the same" and then the specifying of "this sin that means so much" betrays a sense that this sin is greater.

2. You are only 13. Your time might be better spent than reading highly opinionated blogs on same sex marriage so late at night. God is truly with you every moment, but He wants you to live a life, too! Get your sleep. Study well. Play sports and/or a musical instrument. Be a part of the secular world and show them what God's light is all about in the doing of it.

4/20/2006 9:07 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm a Heterosexual Canadian, maybe not as religious person as others, i haven't attended church on a regular basis for over ten years, but I do consider myself christian as I attempt to have a personal relationship with God. Most of all though I consider my self a humanitarian. I'd like to present a secondary view on homosexuality and Gay marriage:

I do feel that homosexuals have no choice in the matter of their sexual orientation, and they should be given the same rights as the rest of us in this world. If the church doesn't want to marry them, so be it, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't be given the same legal right to marriage as the rest of the world, but more importantly the north american Population. Canada has always been known for leading the world in human rights, even more so then the united states. Our country has been very close to passing laws to allow Gay marriage, but for the time being it has been put on the back burner. If two people love eachother so much, what should stop them from making a life long commitment to each other, isn't that what marriage is really about?

I feel that in this time, people, genders, races have spent so much time fighting for rights that they should be given to begin with. Why should everyone fight so hard for what is right? Would it be right for African descendants to still be slaves in the U.S, simple answer No! Was it right then? again another simple answer, No!
I'm sure at that time in history there were people arguing that it was God's wish that slavery existed, that blacks were an inferior race, and that it was the best thing for them. We all know that is the farthest thing from the truth. Until this day you still have groups lobbying against them such as the KKK. What kind of christian wants to be similated with the KKK? not me.

I think as a christian we should emulate Jesus Christ, Love one another the same regardless of who you are, and what you are about.

Just my 2 canuck cents.

10/27/2006 6:44 AM  
Blogger Christian Democrat said...

Hi Perry -

Thanks for your comments. What I see as the primary issue in the gay marriage/civil union debate isn't about commitment or even a church or government approving of the relationship. It's about money. Insurance companies don't want to have to cover "domestic partners" and the longer they can keep those relationships illegitimate in their books the more they can save huge dollars. Business, as you would expect, also doesn't want to have to pony up the premiums either.

When dealing with the GOP it is usually smart to follow the money. They vote their wallets more often than anything else.

10/27/2006 8:22 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I came across this blog trying to find those of like mind. After reading most of the posts I come away with the feeling that people try to rationalize the word of God and that they try to separate Jesus and the Gospels from both the Old and New Testaments. It's like people try to create a quasi-religion that's all peace, love and warm squishy feelings with no consequences for their actions. Jesus may not have specifically mentioned homosexuality, but he did say that he came to fulfill the law. Jesus was sent by the same God that denounced homosexuality in the OT. The same God of wrath that destroyed many an OT city because of sexual immorality. The God of love that created woman from and for man. I honestly don't know how anyone can read the entire Bible and not come to the conclusion that God sees homosexuality as a sin whether or not it is within the bounds of "marriage". God is also pretty clear in stating that marriage is between a man and a woman. In saying all of this I am not pointing my finger at anyone, it is simply my beliefs based on my study of the Bible and taking the words at face value. I don't know how any Christian Church, or Jewish Synagogue for that matter, can rationalize or justify this point.

On to other stuff...
I have to say that I did not know that a person could not be with a significant other who is in the hospital. Here in my little corner of the South I have been allowed to visit dear friends in ICU with no objections from the staff. I guess I thought it was like that everywhere.

To those who say they "knew" their orientation at 5 and 7 years of age, I am completely blown away by these statements. At 5 and 7 I was playing in mud puddles, riding my bike and saving up money to buy candy at the store. I was completely unaware of sexuality. I didn't even have crushes, I was too busy playing. Can you guys elaborate on this?

10/31/2006 1:41 PM  
Blogger Christian Democrat said...

My 2¢ worth - as a 5 year old boy I had what I thought a very serious relationship with a girl my age, and it was reciprocal. We were a couple for a short time until our parents realized what was going on. It isn't just homosexuals that may be aware of their sexuality at an early age and it isn't everyone that is aware of their sexuality at an early age, but it sure is some of us.

As for the OT law and the generous helpings of forgiveness we lavish on ourselves in the name of Jesus I do to great degree agree with you, we are wrong to do so. That said, unless you are leading a perfect life in the eyes of God, never repeating the same sin, then I say accept that others may fall short of perfection just as you do.

10/31/2006 2:02 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wow, I guess I was just a sheltered, naive kid. I mean I do remember playing doctor and such, but it was more curiosity than sexuality for me. I was probably 10 or 11 when I became aware of sexuality.

Of course, nobody leads a perfect life as we have all sinned and fall short. I believe leading the Christian life means exactly what you say...repenting or turning away from sin, asking for forgiveness and not repeating the same sin. I also believe that the Holy Spirit convicts us of our own sins on a personal level and guides us on our Christian walk.

As far as homosexuality, I reserve my right to believe it is a sin because it is written in God's Word, which is all we have. This is my personal belief, as well as the belief of the church I attend. What goes on in the bedrooms of others is between them and God alone, no one else. Just because I believe it is a sin should have no bearing on their life, just as I expect to worship freely without someone telling me that I am discriminating against a portion of the population because I believe their behavior is wrong.

Anyway, that is all I will say about this subject. I am glad I found this blog, because even though I am a Christian, I am also a card carrying, bleeding heart, tree hugging, whale saving, granola eating, tax the rich and feed the poor believing, Republican hating, liberal DEMOCRAT!!!

And since I have not yet created a username I will post as Anonymous but you can call me Dawn

11/01/2006 7:59 AM  
Blogger Christian Democrat said...

Thanks, Dawn, you put a smile on my face this morning and I needed that.

One theological point, and it may be me reading something into what you wrote that wasn't there, but your "the Holy Spirit convicts us of our own sins on a personal level" I think both correct and not quite so. My feeling is that guilt over sin, which we all feel, can cause us to sin more. As I told the high school youth a while back it's kind of like "well, I'm already 5 minutes late for dinner, what's another half hour going to do to make it worse." The forgiveness in Christ allows us to walk without guilt, with greatest thanks, and with a clear head for the next time we encounter temptation.

As for creating a user name, that isn't an option. If you click on "Other" you can type in Dawn and there is no password, no tracking, no nothing of the sort. Glad to have you here, and thanks.

11/01/2006 9:40 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

When I was younger I may have been prone to sin more because of guilt. I sowed some pretty wild oats in my day and at times still struggle with feelings of guilt for the things I did back then. Now that I am older that is just not the case for me personally. Now, for the most part, I stop to think about the consequences and I credit this stopping action to my personal relationship with God.

But yes, God's grace is wonderful. It is this grace that creates peace in the heart and mind.

And I didn't know what "Other" was nor did I click it to find out, I am being an ignorant user! Thanks!

11/01/2006 2:31 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I just found this site today while searching the terms Christian and democrat. I was doing so because I have family members that are Christians and democrats. I was trying to see how they view things and see if I could grasp where they are coming from. I've come to the conclusion that I can't. Although I disagree with a lot of things on this site, this subject is especially concerning. I think you all with the exception of a fewe need to sit down and read Romans 1 in your Bible. It clearly talks about how homosexuality is wrong and unseemly. Homosexuality is clearly a sin in the Old Testament as well as the New Testament. There is no getting around it and no debating necessary, it is clearly wrong. I keep reading over and over again from other people on here how we are not to judge others. While this is true, me saying homesexuality is sin and is wrong in every way is not an issue of me judging someone. I'm not making a personal judgement on my own opinion, I am just stating what God says in His Word. Please let me make this very clear, it is God that is doing the judging and saying homosexuality is sin, not me. I'm just stating what the Bible says. I am a born again Bible-believing Christian, and I'm tired of people trying to justify their sin so they can live as they please. Am I a perfect no means, just a sinner saved by the miraculous grace of God. When I sin, I ask for forgiveness and strive to live for Christ the best I know how. When I say that homosexuality is sin, I'm not saying it because it is my opinion, I'm saying it because God says its wrong. I will be praying for you.


9/04/2008 2:04 PM  
Blogger Christian Democrat said...


I always appreciate prayers.

Thank you.

9/04/2008 5:24 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I agree with the previous poster who said that it is not judging to say what the bible declares - homosexuality is a sin.

Yes, we are all sinners and we're not supposed to judge each other. However, we are supposed to know what is sinful. We are supposed to know the difference. When Jesus said, "Let whoever is without sin throw the first stone", those people were trying to kill her. It doesn't mean that her actions were not wrong. The point was that Christ extended grace upon her, showing that anyone can be forgiven of their sin. What happened after that? She repented and did not did not go back to her old life.

Of course, we will always be sinful people, but as Christians we have to struggle with it with repentance, prayer, the word of God and building our relationship with the Lord - so that we are continually cleansed and our lives changed. The problem I'm seeing with some of the posts here is that while yes, homosexuality is being acknowledged as a sin, it seems thats where the story ends. Struggling with sin means making an effort to change and be free of it, not saying, "yes, I am sinful" and then embracing the very sin that I confessed to.

11/18/2008 9:11 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm a Christian Democrat, an Lutheran (ELCA), and filled with the Holy Spirit. I'm a sinner. We're all sinners, always falling short of God's glory, but if we confess our sins to God, we will be forgiven. But that doesn't mean we will be free of sin, we'll always sin, and we always need to keep asking God for forgiveness. I don't believe in total inerrancy of the Bible, but I believe many of Jesus' teachings should be taken as truth.
Jesus Christ loved everyone, equally, even when he died on the cross for our sins, he still forgave and loved those who wronged him, and sent him to die on the cross. I believe homosexuality is not a sin, but they're other sexual sins that under any cimcumstances, are not acceptable. for instance, polygamy, rape, incest, etc... .
I don't have a problem with gay marriage. I was dissapointed when Californians voted to ban gay marriage last November. Every state should allow gays & lesbians to wed. This is definitely a civil rigts issue, and one we can't ignore. GOD BLESS YOU!!

2/04/2009 9:31 PM  
Blogger Daniel Pinell said...

Dear Christian Democrat:
I found this blog by googling "Christian Democrats", I agree with you on many issues.

This is a tough and complex topic. I am a Catholic Christian, and I believe that homosexuality behavior is sinful, as the Bible says.

Now that doesn't mean I go out hating and mistreating homosexuals, I just don't think homosexual behavior is not sinful in God's eye.

One important distinction, for me, is to differentiate between homosexual behavior and homosexual desires and/or thoughts. I don't think it is sinful to be homosexual, the Bible only speak against homosexual acts.

In the end, it all comes down to one thing: sexual immorality. Just because I'm straight (and I am) does not mean I don't have to struggle with sexual immorality. Even if I get married, I still can't look lustfully at other women (that is consenting my lustful thoughts and having fantasies) without sinning. Even if I become a Priest (which I'm thinking about it by the way) doesn't mean I'd have it easier than the next guy, homosexual or not. So in that sense, it would be unfair to blame God for praying to "take away this filthy thoughts" and not take away those thoughts when not even the straight person is free of them. It is like asking God to take away our sexual nature, which even celibate priests and straights have to deal with. I think this is an interesting article:

Thanks and God bless!

3/13/2009 1:32 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Who and how people love is between them and God. It should not matter one bit to me.

I thank God every day that I was not put in charge of judging other sinners and that all I am asked to do is to love everyone as Jesus loves them.

When Judgment Day comes, I pray I can say that I have done just this.

9/22/2009 6:14 PM  
Anonymous Michele said...

I am female, 20 years old, married (to a man), and a very strong Christian. I found this website today after being supremely dissapointed with the options in the media presented to me on political issues. My two options always seemed to be that I could read an article about how polyamory was the most healthy, fulfilling type of relationship, or I could go to a Christian source that spewed "all Democrats are going to Hell." Not very good choices there. I'm glad I found this website.

On this particular issue, and many others in our current political environment, Christians need to realize that the church IS NOT the United States of America. We as Christians cannot, under any circumstances, equate our government with our faith, because that gives the government far too much power over the Truth. I truly believe that the Bible is clear in its description of homosexuality as a sin. There is nowhere in the Bible where you will find that it is okay in God's eyes, and many references to show that it is not part of his plan. (The same I think is true of abortion, though that is much more vague.)

That being said, the Constitution of the United States guarantees the same rights to ALL citizens, no matter what their race, gender, sexuality, or other differentiating factor. If the US government chooses to recognize heterosexual unions as marriages with certain benefits, then it MUST provide the same benefits to anyone who meets the requirements of committment to live together over an extended period of time. As a Christian, I believe marriage is so much more than this definition, but the government must make laws based on clearly defined guidelines.

To me, this is the only determining factor in whether states should recognize marriages between any two people, just as it was an atrocity that a Justice of the Peace in Louisiana refused to marry two people of different race because he felt the marriage wasn't stable. As a government official, everyone could see that his actions were outside of his function and should not be allowed.

That being said, I also believe that no church should sanction ANY marriage that falls outside of the parameters that they believe have been set by God. Whether they feel that a couple is not prepared for marriage, it is an abusive relationship, or a homosexual union, no church should be forced to bless a union that they do not feel is blessed by the One who sanctioned them to unify two people in His name.

11/02/2009 7:57 AM  

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